Doug Massey has 40 years of experience in the financial industry, specializing in retirement planning and life insurance. A dedicated NAIFA member since 1987, he has served as president of his local association and NAIFA Texas. Doug actively participated in the IFAPAC committee and recently played a crucial role in NAIFA's stand against the Department of Labor's fiduciary rule proposal. As NAIFA's President-Elect for 2025, he is committed to advancing the organization's influence and protecting advisors' interests.

               

 

 

 

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn: 

• [2:45] Doug Massey discusses how the DOL fiduciary rule may reshape the financial services landscape
• [4:47] Why NAIFA opposes the DOL's proposal 
• [9:04] The potential implications of the DOL rule on financial advisors' practices 
• [13:28] The broader context and sources pushing for regulatory changes 
• [21:28] Why NAIFA members must share their voices and engage politically 
• [22:09] Doug's personal involvement and observations during the DOL lawsuit proceedings
• [30:33] What is Doug’s vision for the future of NAIFA and its membership?
• [37:27] Exciting plans for NAIFA Texas' 100-year anniversary and what to expect from the event
• [45:33] Doug's career accomplishments and what inspires him

In this episode…

Regulations aim to protect, but there comes a point when they may encroach on professional autonomy and service delivery. When proposed changes to the fiduciary rule jeopardize an entire industry, what are the next steps? How can associations make a difference and safeguard their members’ interests against regulatory overreach? 

Seasoned financial advisor Doug Massey delves into NAIFA's proactive measures to confront the Department of Labor's proposed fiduciary rule — a move that could transform the landscape of financial advising. The rule can significantly impact advisors' practices, particularly within retirement planning and life insurance. With a steadfast commitment to the industry and a strong belief in NAIFA's advocacy, Doug recounts the internal workings of the legal challenge, highlighting the need for advisors to advocate and contribute to the industry's defense against restrictive regulations.

In this episode of Advisor Today, Chris Gandy and Suzanne Carawan sit down with Doug Massey, a financial services expert and NAIFA's President-Elect, to talk about protecting financial advisors from overreaching regulations. Doug discusses how the DOL fiduciary rule may reshape the financial service landscape, NAIFA's opposition to the DOL's proposal, and why NAIFA members need to share their voices and engage politically.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

• Chris Gandy on LinkedIn
• Suzanne Carawan on LinkedIn
• NAIFA
• Doug Massey on LinkedIn

Quotable Moments:

• "NAIFA is there to protect your business; it's a labor of love." 
• "NAIFA's involvement is like the 800-pound gorilla. When we speak, the industry pays attention." 
• "Anything that the mind can conceive and believe it can achieve."
• "Every NAIFA member knows they're a member; they've voluntarily put their hand up saying, I'll ascribe to that code of ethics."
• "The value proposition of being a NAIFA member is better than it's ever been." 

Action Steps:

1. Join your local NAIFA chapter to actively participate in advocacy for the industry: Members' collective voice is crucial in influencing policy decisions at the state and federal levels.
2. Stay informed on regulatory proposals like the DOL fiduciary rule that can affect your practice: Keeping abreast of policy changes allows you to adjust and defend your practices proactively.
3. Educate clients on the importance of political engagement in protecting their access to financial services: Informed clients can be powerful advocates for maintaining reasonable regulations that enable effective financial advising.
4. Consider becoming an influencer within NAIFA to galvanize others toward active membership: Influencers can inspire colleagues and peers to understand NAIFA's instrumental role in industry advocacy.
5. Attend NAIFA's Apex event to share ideas, learn from industry leaders, and influence the organization's direction: Participating in flagship events links you directly to the industry's pulse and provides networking opportunities.

Sponsor for this episode...

This episode is brought to you by the National Association of Insurance and Financial Advisors' Advocacy program. NAIFA provides a newsletter open to the industry that reports on government activities at the state and federal levels. Sign up now

At NAIFA, we enhance professional skills, promote ethical conduct, and advocate for legislative and regulatory environments.

By joining NAIFA, you gain access to a partnership that elevates your performance while providing greater purpose to your professional work. NAIFA members are happier, make more money, and stay in the business longer.

Get in touch with NAIFA and learn more about how to join NAIFA by visiting NAIFA.org.

Episode Transcript

Intro 0:02 

Welcome to NAIFA's Advisor Today, podcast series where we focus on how financial advisors work live and give to their local communities and our greater financial services industry. Now let's get started with the show.

Chris Gandy 0:20 

Hi everyone. I'm your co-host. Chris Gandy, and welcome to Advisor Today's podcast, where we talk to the voices, the people that are on the streets, the connective tissue of NAIFA. I'm here with our wonderful co-host, Suzanne. Carawan, Suzanne, it's so great to see you as we close out of July.

Suzanne Carawan 0:39 

Likewise, Chris, good to be here.

Chris Gandy 0:41 

We got a wonderful guest today. We got one of our superstar up and coming voices for NAIFA, and we're super excited to have him. But before we talk to him, Suzanne, hear all the good things he's doing. Can you share with us who our sponsor is for today's podcast please.

Suzanne Carawan 1:01 

Yeah, today is a really special episode. And so we're going to give big props out to NAIFA Advocacy and all the work we do. NAIFA founded in 1890 the only association which does work at the state, interstate and federal levels. And so we wanted to talk today about some of the work we're doing. We're known in the industry as being a little too humble, so we're going to take a little time today to beat the drum on NAIFA and the amazing work we do with Grassroots and as well as with our different teams that we utilize to make sure that we are advocating for a positive legislative and regulatory environment

Chris Gandy 1:38 

Awesome. So Suzanne, would you do us the gesture of introducing our wonderful guest for today?

Suzanne Carawan 1:45 

Absolutely. So we're delighted today to have our president elect, Doug Massey. Doug will become president for 2025 and will be sworn in September of this year at our Apex conference out of the Arizona Biltmore, and while he doesn't officially take office till January 1 of 2025 that is when we're all going to gather for our national leadership conference. And Doug is a proud Texan and has been pivotal in the work that NAIFA has been doing on the DOL. So Doug, thanks for joining us today.

Doug Massey 2:19 

Thank you. I'm glad to get to be asked and what it's very timely with some of the news we got over the weekend, which hopefully we get into very soon.

Chris Gandy 2:28 

All right, so Doug, let's jump in. So, tell us a little bit about where you're from. I think that's important. I know you have a little southern accident, but tell us a little bit about the wonderful state you're from, and a little bit about your practice, if you would.

Doug Massey 2:45 

Well, this is my 40th year in the business. I live in San Angelo, Texas, which geographically, that's pretty much near the Dead Center some of us consider us West Texas. My primary practice is retirement planning and life insurance. Been a NAIFA member since 87 so we're 36 odd years. Served at my local association, as president a couple of times, and then went on to the NAIFA Texas board, went through the chairs there, served as NAIFA president in 2011 and 12, and then joined the Alpha pack, and I stood on the national Alpha pack committee for several years, and then ran for trustee of NAIFA, served one term, and then threw my hat in the ring for Secretary. And here we are. Next year, I'll get to take the helm, and it's a little bit scary when you see what all is involved, but it's a passion of mine. I've enjoyed doing it. It's the labor of love.

Chris Gandy 3:48 

So, Doug, you were pivotal in this, we know the Department of Labor passed a guideline, right? Not necessarily, all right, they passed the guideline in which they were going to try to implement to across the board, to all financial service companies, even though there were, there were some that saying it wasn't going to affect them. And it had a lot to do with the fiduciary rule and making everyone a fiduciary. Doug, can you talk a little bit about why we just didn't get on board with the DOL and say, you know what, it's better for everyone that everybody gets this has to use the same rules. Why was it so important that? Or what was it about that passing of that DOL that kind of didn't sit right with you, or NAIFA from that perspective.

Doug Massey 4:48 

Well and this is the, at least the second bite at the apple the DOL has tried to turn us all into fiduciaries, and we feel like we're under a best interest which we've got that passed in 46 states, I believe now the best interest through the State Departments of insurance. so we're under the best interest standard, and there's very little difference between a fiduciary and your what's considered where the regulations or the state rules that we're all under for best interest. The DOL filed a suit in 2016 in the Northern District of Texas, which ultimately was overturned by the Fifth Circuit in 2018, the DOL took another bite at the apple, trying to turn us all into fiduciaries by filing or proposing the rule coming out with a final rule. They did that in early May, I believe, we turned around late April, early May, they proposed a rule that is almost exactly like the 2016 rule that was overturned by the Fifth Circuit.

The ACLI, which this goes to NAIFA's Grassroots and us having boots on the ground in all 50 states and members in every congressional district. ACLI turned to NAIFA, and they asked NAIFA Texas to file, they wanted to file that suit again in the Northern District of Texas. So we got the NAIFA, Dallas, NAIFA Fort Worth, and NAIFA piney woods of East Texas, three what we consider chapters or locals to join the lawsuit, as did some other industry associations. And we filed suit during and that was in late May. May 23 I believe, is when we filed the Chamber of Commerce, who was very active in the 2016 suit, signed on and wrote an amicus brief on our behalf for our lawsuit, as did the Hispanic Leadership Fund and just a few weeks ago, and two other industry associations, FSI and SIFMA joined as plaintiffs in our lawsuit. So there was another similar, very similar lawsuit filed in the Eastern District of Texas.

And so these two lawsuits were going on, there was a ruling in the Eastern District middle of last week, which was also a stay. And then Friday night, late, the judge in the Northern District granted our stay. So what that means for us now is the rule is put on hold until all the appeals have played out. The hearing is played out. It's very likely that the DOL will file an appeal to the stay in the Fifth Circuit, which is barking up a tree, in our opinion. Do they overturn the original rule in 2016 but we're in good shape right now. One of the quotes that in the ruling was that ACLI and NAIFA virtually certain to succeed on the merit so very strong language on our behalf, and so we feel really good about it. And it just shows the Grassroots and the reach that NAIFA has. That when ACLI turned wanted somebody to be their partner. In my opinion, the ACLI had they filed suit, they might not have been as much big insurance companies.

Well, maybe they're not all that important, or the judge might look at differently, but when real members of NAIFA myself, Leslie Pinkard, Danny Fisher and our CEO Kevin May wrote declarations of how this would affect our practices and the negative consequences of this fiduciary only rule and the difference between Best Interest in in a fiduciary. And so we're elated, and we hope to get the word out and show our members and potential members just what we're doing for them and NAIFA's there to protect your business.

Chris Gandy 8:53 

So, Doug you said a lot, right? I mean, let's unpack that a little bit. So if it was defeated in 2016 why would they bring it back?

Doug Massey 9:04 

This has been and this is actually worth an attempt prior to that. This is something that the DOL. It's really regulatory creep. The DOL wants to get more. I want the word for you get more under their umbrella, where they're regulating even larger and larger. The DOL, by how many people you regulate, it affects your funding and your reach. And so it's just, it's regulatory creep Congress never intended, and get right down to the core of Congress never intended for the Department of Labor to regulate IRAs. And this is what that does. Now DOL is clearly has regulation over tier one, which is your 401ks and your real qualified plans. But the Congress is very specific that IRAs individual retirement accounts would not be a part of tier one, and so they would not be regulated the Department of Labor.

So this is their way to go for the. Rollover. Many, many people roll out of the 401K, or their other qualified plans into IRAs. And this was the way that the Department of Labor could reach out and take that in under their umbrella. So it's regulatory creep is the bottom line. And fortunately, we were successful in 2016 ultimately in 2018 with the Fifth Circuit. And it looks like we're in really good shape right now.

Chris Gandy 10:24 

Okay, Suzanne, sorry to interrupt you. Go ahead.

Suzanne Carawan 10:26 

That's okay. I was just going to ask Doug, what's the implications if we can't stop this thing, right? What does that mean for the practices, you alluded too, we wrote letters on it, but just break it down for regular financial advisors out there, like, what would happen to their practice?

Doug Massey 10:42 

Well, at the core, they feel like that most annuities, and that was really the IRAs role, or qualified plans rolled into IRAs within annuities, was our, let's say a share, C share, mutual funds. The Department of Labor feels like that, we take that commission, because annuity commissions are usually paid one time, upfront, when the contract is issued, and the DOL stance is that we're just doing that because we get paid. We get a bigger commission than if we were to put those assets under management and charge, let's just say the industry standard is kind of 1%. Well, annuity commissions are nowhere near 1% annuity contracts usually stay in force five to seven years or longer. It's much more efficient, it's less costly, but they feel like that we would sell an annuity over managed money, because we get that little bit higher commission up front, but then we don't get any future commissions.

One of the distinctions was, and a lot of times, the clients that we use in selling annuities, it's a buy and hold top contract, not something that's necessarily managed. Manage the money. They're continuously playing with the investments and moving them and jumping in and out and changing allocations within the investment, where ours are more the buy and hold investor, but they feel like we would lean towards doing that because we got paid more upfront, when really in the long run and over time, the commissions are less than What we would make if we use to manage money.

Chris Gandy 12:26 

So Doug, if, at the end of the day, we are held to a standard at NAIFA, right when you're a NAIFA member, there's a standard of Care, there's a higher level of expectation for an advisor who was a NAIFA advisor. We understand that the DOL does that, but didn't the DOL basically get put in their place by the SEC and FINRA basically saying, this is out of your category. So why are you even in this space and so, where is this coming from? Like, where is it coming from? It's originating from somewhere. Is it the idea that life insurance and annuities has tax favorable treatment and to fix some of the ill, let's just say the ill wills or challenges we've got in America with America's financial situation, there's a target on our back, because of that, where's it coming from?

Doug Massey 13:28 

There's a lot to unpack there too. Also, Chris, there is a target on our back. I'll start with that. The products that NAIFA members, that the products that we sell, virtually every product, has some type of tax advantage or tax deferral or tax free, but those benefits are well served with customers and well, sorry, it keeps our products and the tax advantages that they have, whether it be deferral, tax free, death benefit, pretax premiums, virtually every product has some tax advantage but that makes our products much more affordable, much better for the client, but it also keeps people off of the government subsidies and off of welfare and other government programs, because people able to take care of themselves about purchasing our products. So we believe that the advantages that our products have are well deserved and in the best interest of the citizens. But there's, don't want to get too political, but there we're running record deficits.

There's 34 odd trillion dollars in debt. And when you look out across tax expenditures, which is the term the IRS uses for money that moves this that they don't get a piece of that they don't get the tax but six of the 10 largest tax expenditures are in our wheelhouse. Are in from deductibility of health insurance premiums, tax free life insurance to referral and cash values and annuities and life insurance and the benefits that are paid out without, tax free disability income, it just the list goes on and on. But there's a vast amount of money, according to the IRS, that that's a target. And so there's so many, and we have to defend all of those, and NAIFA does a great job of doing that. We really with the Jobs Act that expires next year. It's really, this election is very, I don't get too political. It's very, very important, because those expire at the end of next year, and that's when the target will really be on our back, because Congress seems to not want to raise taxes or cut spending, so they're going to have to go after something and that's where the bull's eye is on us. And I hope I answered your question, Chris.

Chris Gandy 15:55 

you did? You did? You did? I think our listeners, right? I'm just going to say this our listeners out there, I think they're NAIFA members, and I believe Suzanne. I believe we publish it everywhere. I don't just believe NAIFA listen to this. So if you want to be part of that movement, and you want to be part of, as I say, on the forefront of what's happening as it deals with our industry and also making different, get involved in your local NAIFA Chapter. Raise your hand. We're looking for people. I'll do that a couple times on this podcast. Don't be shy. You can't sit on the sidelines and expect to play the game. I'm gonna throw in some sports references for you, Doug, but that's super important. So, why is it important, though, Doug that now we tell the story, I think, so many times that this is what happens, is that we do something really good. And I talked to Doug Massey.

Doug Massey talks to Chris Gandy. Chris Gandy talks to our current NAIFA members. But why is it important that we tell everyone? Because if everyone knew that they could possibly lose their financial advisor this place would be in an uproar. But it's kind of behind the scenes, right? It's kind of like I told my people, I said, listen, there may become a chance that I'm not your advisor at the end of this year, they're like, what do you mean? And so I said, you need to contact your local congressional member and let them know that you are opposed to this DOL thing that possibly can make it very difficult for someone like you to have access to financial services because you don't have those balances. So why is it important that A as NAIFA members we tell that story, and why is it important for our clients to go to their local congressional members and tell their story because they have a specific story. Why are those two specific things important?

Doug Massey 17:54 

It is, we have boots on the ground, like I said, at all 50 state capitals, and a huge footprint in Washington, DC. Our members may not have the relationships to go to Congress and get in the door, but NAIFA does. NAIFA has built a reputation at these state capitals and in certainly in Washington, DC. And we don't do it in our own self-interest. We do it. We put our clients first, and we don't toot our horn near enough, but we have a congress, and they have a great respect, and when we're on the hill, they know that we're there, and they know that they're not on our own self-interest, but in the interest of our clients, and what's the right thing to do. And so we've built this history with Congress that they appreciate our input. They asked for our input, and they certainly have, in many cases, jumped in and helped us many, many times that negative things have been proposed in Congress, and we'll explain to them why that doesn't work.

It's not in the best interest of your constituents. And then they listen. If we all individually try to go up there and do it without one big voice that is well respected, we wouldn't have near the success that we do. And so your NAIFA membership is pennies on the dollar for what you get, just on the regulatory and the legislative fronts. It's worth money well spent. We couldn't all hire a lobbyist for the very small amount that our dues are. That lets you stay in your practice and participate as you wish. But there's other NAIFA members and our staff and our gr committee that will be on the Hill speaking on our behalf. And it just shocks me that there we don't have more members than we do, but I don't think we do as good a job as we should, selling our story and pounding our own chest and tooting our own horn.

Chris Gandy 19:51 

Well, since we're talking about that, I'll debunk some this. I'll take the opportunity right now. We do have people out there that they think that NAIFA is for companies. So NAIFA is not for companies, it's for the agent, advisor, the individual, one voice, one vote. We have people that think, oh, I can have one member my whole agency. No, we need everybody to be members, right? Because every person is that individual, voice and vote is what matters, and that's what moves the needle with at the state and federal levels. It's a numbers game, right? So I'll just throw those two things in, because we have a lot of people that think that, right? So if you're out there listening, you're like, huh, I think like somebody in my office is a member, well, you should be a member too, right?

And so you get counted. And when we go back to Congress, we actually report the number of people we have right in each congressional district, and that makes a big difference, because again, showing up there, you are the constituents, right? You are the people voting for that person. So you're taking a lot of clients voice with you as well. So it's important that we get each person, kind of on the roster as an individual member.

Doug Massey 20:55 

To make both our points, Ed Wagner on Financial Services Committee, who is a big fan of NAIFA. She had already herself, put out a press release or put out a statement in support and congratulating us on the positive ruling that the stay that was achieved in Texas. So they're watching what we're doing. They're aware of it, and through our years and years of coming back and doing the right thing, we've built their support, and they jump in and help us in when they can.

Chris Gandy 21:28 

So Doug, I'm sure you just didn't, you were part of this, but there was a consolidated effort when you build a team. And I know the wizardry of NAIFA, the partnerships with ACLI, and the combination of that and really talented people that are lawyers and lobbyists and all those things go into play when you go up and you oppose a ruling or a guideline. So Doug, how nervous were you. So walk me through the story, and I know everybody wants to hear this a little bit, because I believe you were at the court, didn't you go to court?

Doug Massey 22:09 

I did not go the court. We did not have a hearing. Well to tell those story, ACLI when this we were aware that the rule was possible. The Department of Labor did have a comment period. But they published the rule. The call that a draft of the rule. They published it. We all became aware of it. We did go and submit testimony, which was in all honesty, as did others. This is not all night, but this is a several other associations and were involved also in opposition to the rule, they went ahead and published it only. But when it comes down to file the lawsuit, ACLI turned to NAIFA. This would affect the companies too. The big target, the biggest victim or consequence, would have this that had been very, very hard to sell annuities within IRAs or qualified plans, it would have some of the companies thought, well, we'll just have to exit the qualified, qualified money and annuities.

So that's a big hit to the company. So they turned to NAIFA because of our relationship that we've built with them and the footprint that we have. And there was other associations that were also but NAIFA is the 800 pound gorilla, and because they wanted to file in the Northern District of Texas, of course, they turned to Texas because that gave the ACLI and NAIFA standing. And then further, with Dallas Fort Worth and piney woods of East Texas being in the northern and eastern districts where the cases would likely be decided, they added us as plaintiffs. And my part was I sat in I live in the Northern District of Texas too. So I was in it. I was incoming president, so I was kind of the lucky one, I guess you'd say. And so Tom asked me to set in as representative for NAIFA, along with Michael Gerber, our General Counsel, on all the meetings.

And there were dozens of zoom meetings with the attorneys from the companies the law firm, and it was mostly listening and how would affect them and the different ideas. But it was really interesting to sit back and watch how, when Michael or myself spoke, everybody was paying attention, that they knew how important it was that NAIFA be at the table and be the ACLI's partner in this suit.

Chris Gandy 24:32 

Doug, NAIFA was at the table. I know that, as you mentioned, there were other associations that showed up. But why was NAIFA on the forefront of it? Though that seemed like NAIFA's voice was kind of louder. We can say that when it came time to roll up their sleeves and get busy, that there were people that put their name into and say, Hey, we're part of this. But when it came time to actually do the work, that seems like NAIFA and you and some of the members of NAIFA were hands on deck, right? And so when you start looking at if we're rowing a boat the end of the day, I want to be in the boat with the people that are rowing in the right direction too, right?

But I'm also going to jump on if we happen to get off the island too, you know. So I'm also going to be the person that also. So I think there's a little bit of that everybody's going to raise their hand and say, we were part of the victory. We get it. But I just want to comment that I know we were on the forefront really making that happen. We're pushing that along spirited through NAIFA, can you comment on that?

Doug Massey 25:48 

I don't like tooting my own horn, but I was the only actual insurance agent, registered rep advisor on the calls there were, sometimes there was 20 to 30 company attorneys, Wilmer Hale staff, ACLI's, legal department, and I was the only advisor that was invited to been in over here a bunch of legal and I'd call Michael, who's somewhat funny, after him said, what did all that mean? But they were speaking their lingo, but when I did, I did really appreciate this. When I did speak and I did say, and you just felt they were paying attention. They were listening. And it was tell another side story where we had dinner with the, Chris you were there. We had dinner with the ACLI board in June. June 13, it happened to be my birthday. We were in DC, and they had dinner.

We were invited up to DC to have dinner with the ACLI board. And it was so, I mean, they greeted us at the door. The admiration for NAIFA, and what we've done for the industry, and certainly is now that we have life happens as a part of the NAIFA family, us bringing in the society of financial professionals FSP, that industry news was out there and they were so appreciative of and so welcoming. We really enjoyed that, because you, you witnessed it too. You may have your own comments.

Chris Gandy 27:16 

Well, it was a great opportunity to connect with the leaders of the association. I mean, you had the leaders, the top CEOs and leaders in the industry, all in one room for the collective good of moving the needle on insurance and financial services. The opportunity for NAIFA to have someone at every table was super important, I think, and also to hear how the alignment makes us stronger as a collective partner with them. So we look forward to continuing to grow that relationship and continue to play with them and for us to support them in any way we can, of course, but I just enjoyed being in the room where it happens. I don't know if you've ever seen Hamilton.

I don't know if Hamilton comes down to Texas, but we're gonna have to bring, to send him, Hamilton. You know, in the room where it happens, you know, it's, it's, that's the same is that when you're in a room where it happens, you know it before other people and you're able to build meaningful relationships that sometimes don't get depressed, but it is something that's super important when you're moving and when you're trying to do something as important, as monumental as some of the stuff we're doing at NAIFA.

Doug Massey 28:39 

There's never been a better time, and our value proposition for what you get for your NAIFA dues, with the educational opportunities at FS that we have, LUTCF, with the addition of the society financial service professionals and their educational catalog of educational materials, and then we've got life happens, which is the voice of the industry, and that's now part of the NAIFA family, and going to give us more exposure. But there's also many of the things within life happens are available to our members that they can use in their practice, and it's a win.

It's great time to be a part of the leadership of NAIFA. And like I said, the value proposition right now is better than it's ever been. There's a lot of challenges on the horizon, certainly with tax reform next year likely to take up a big part of what happens in Congress, and we'll be at the table defending our members and their practices and our clients and the products that we sell, all of them. So it's a it's exciting times.

Chris Gandy 29:49 

Doug, I'll just say that. People can't sit on the sidelines. I mean, that's how these things sneak. Can people can't sit on the sidelines. They've got to get active. They've got to bring others with them. And now is the time, as you mentioned, there's no more present time with the enormous tax bill and tax changes happening, everybody's needs to be heard, right? And so the industry needs you, if you're listening to this. The industry needs professional people who want to get engaged and get involved and make sure the industry is here for those that come behind us. So super important. And those that are NAIFA members need to become what I call influencers, is we need to influence others so that they're inspired to do some of these cool things that we're getting a chance to do. Doug, right?

Doug Massey 29:51 

Absolutely, you always think that I spend a, as Do you Chris and much the leadership we spend a lot of our time, but it seems to, seems to work itself out. You go to these meetings, and with several times a year, I'm out of state, I'm in meetings, but I'm also with other NAIFA members, other very successful advisors and insurance agents. And you pick up ideas, and you learn to build friendships and relationships with these people from all over the country and how they do business and these are some of the more successful advisors and agents in in the whole industry. And you pick up ideas, and they they're more than willing to share those ideas with you. So my NAIFA membership doesn't cost me a thing. It makes me 1000s upon 1000s of dollars a year.

And the leadership roles, it only gets better as you go up through the chairs and you get in different circles of other successful leaders, you pick up those ideas and build those relationships that, one case comes to mind years ago, ran across a really unique I get in all the details, really unique situation. Didn't know what I could do for this attorney who had a term that's expiring. The company had been sold and sold and sold. And finally, I called on some of my NAIFA buddies, and they knew of who to call, who to get a hold of, and how to get that converted for him. And it turned into 1000s of dollars in commissions. But it was my NAIFA friends who had those relationships, that knew the person, that knew the person, and help me out.

Within a matter of hours, we had the case submitted, and on my own. I don't know if I'd ever been able to do it. So those little things like that that more than pay for your dues and the ideas. I mean, just hanging around Chris, you get all kinds of ideas.

Chris Gandy 32:37 

All right. So with that being said. Suzanne, do you have anything else for Mr. Doug? Mr. Doug, let's talk about the super important meeting that from the top Apex is right around the corner. We're super excited to host a monumental event in Arizona. And those who aren't registered, please go register today. We look forward to seeing you there. But can you talk about Apex and the importance of showing up? We're going to play a game, you can't dial in your efforts. I I'm going to go play in the Olympics, you know, the Olympics are happening right now, Doug, and if the Olympics are happening, I can't say, Hey, listen, I'm one of the best players, but I'm not actually in Paris playing in the Olympics, right? I've got to actually show up in Paris, and I've got to perform, right? And so why would people the Olympics is in apex? I mean, that's the Olympic event for us. So with that being said, why should people be in Apex? Be excited to be there and bring someone with them.

Doug Massey 33:39 

Apex there's many, many eight, maybe more than that, breakout sessions on different topics that will add your, David McKnight will be there. He's also on stage in one of the keynote speakers, his ideas and what he shared. He's got a huge following. He's a huge fan of NAIFA. He'll be there. But in addition to all the educational opportunities and training and idea sharing, you're in with some of the best professionals in our whole industry. But also there are opportunities for Chapter leadership is National Leadership Conference, and there's opportunities of how that the leadership from our chapters can take the ideas and playbook and go back and run a more effective chapter, which will increase membership, which we need.

But the folks that are there, you'll pick up an idea that will more than pay for the expenses out there, and you'll rub shoulders and build relationships with top professionals that people are on their game, and they're all willing to go out there and give back. And if you say, I want to pick your brain. Well, every person out there will stop and make time for you to share your ideas or answer your questions or help you in any way that they can. But it's a reunion of a lot of friendships, a lot of opportunities to build relationships with other members, and it'll be a big success. Uh, really looking forward to it. Hope you all it's September 19, 20 and 21st is that I've got on my calendar. Yes, that's right, I wouldn't miss it. I haven't missed a national conference or NLC in probably 15 years, so it's well worth it.

Suzanne Carawan 35:35 

And just on that note, Doug, why don't you go ahead and plug because it's a special anniversary coming up for Texas next year in your year.

Doug Massey 35:46 

NAIFA, Texas is 100 years old next year, and so we're pulling out all the stops. It will be in Austin, February, 10, 11th and 12th. It'll be the NAIFA board is actually going to join come down and have our in person meeting in early February in Austin, on the 12th, which I believe is that Wednesday, we'll have a Day on the Hill, which it's early in the session, but we'll storm the Texas Capitol. And we've got a lot of friends there many, many of us know our members of the House and the Senate. We've got relationship in the governor's office, and we're well received when we go there. But there'll be some really good breakout sessions and a big celebrations, celebrating NAIFA, protecting its agents and advisors for 100 years. So we're really excited.

Suzanne Carawan 36:48 

Nice during the 100th year you're coming into being your president.

Doug Massey 36:56 

One of our biggest awards is in our advocacy is the Terry Headley Award, which attacks in John Ruckel, former national president and a big fan of NAIFA, 50 some year member. I believe he was is going to be recognized for the Terry Headley award. He'll be recognized in Scottsdale, in Arizona in September, but then we'll make a big to do about John, because he's helped so many of us over the years, and he's very deserving of the Terry Headley award. So it's going to be all about Texas for just, if it's not already all the time, but it will be certainly.

Suzanne Carawan 37:37 

well, Texas forever. But yeah, Chris, it's time to go to the lightning round.

Chris Gandy 37:41 

All right. All right. All right. Doug, anything else you want to say about well, let me ask a question before we go to lightning round next year, you're going to be the press, right? You're going to be el presidente, or what do they call the pontiff? What is, what do they call the POTUS? Right?

Doug Massey 38:06 

Yeah. Well, I like the term Hefe a better.

Chris Gandy 38:13 

So you're going to be the president. Give us some thoughts on where NAIFA is going, What's in line under the Doug Massey presidency? I mean, inspire us. This is an election year, right? Let's get after it. So what are some of the thoughts that you'd like to share with NAIFA nation? We're all listening.

Doug Massey 38:34 

Oh, what I intend to do is lean on my incoming president. So I'll defer to him as much as I can get by with that, but what I want to do is keep the train on the tracks, keep doing what we're doing. We're having a lot of success, and Chris, you're going to be a big part of that. Tom Coffman is a big part of it as those that we're traveling on roads that we didn't pave, and so it's our responsibility to maintain those and grow and that's certainly what my objective is, to grow NAIFA, to increase our footprint and the awareness of what we do, communicate that to those other agents and advisors that are out there that should be members.

We're certainly doing their work for them, and they get the benefit we don't, other than all the educational and everything else that I talked about earlier, the benefits of NAIFA they get, they ought to be helping us pull this wagon, because it takes membership. And so that's one of my big deals, is to get our membership numbers. It turned in the right direction. We talk a lot about it inside baseball or inside the board meetings but NAIFA is just as effective today at a smaller membership than we were many, many years over her whole since 1890 our membership numbers are not where they were, but we're just as effective and sometimes with technology and all the things we're able to do today and the offerings that we have, we're just as effective. We're winning the battles that we need to win. We just need more voices.

Suzanne Carawan 38:36 

Yeah, and just more. Yeah. A lot of people think you have, you know, it's not for it's only for young advisors, or it's not for seasoned advisors. NAIFA membership is throughout the entire course of your career. So let's debunk any of those myths as well. Because everybody should be a member of NAIFA, right? As soon as you get going, it should not be. There's stuff out there too. And you know why we're so effective, Doug, I would say just from where I sit, it's because every member at NAIFA knows they're a member, and they voluntarily put their hand up and said, I'm going to ascribe to that code of ethics. They know it. They have voluntarily joined on their own behalf. They weren't like just voluntold into it. So it makes a big difference, sure.

Chris Gandy 40:53 

Well, let's get after it. Suzanne, you want to assist us go to the lightning round. So, Doug, listen, we're going to take you to the lightning round. The lightning round is basically what people get to know you a little bit. And what I mean get to know you is people may see you. They may say, oh, that's Doug Massey. He's on a virtual but, this is just you kind of get people to know the person, Doug Massey versus el presidente, Mr. Doug Massey. So with that being said, whatever comes to mind, that's the answer. There's no right or wrong answer here.

We're not going to judge you. We're not going to ask you your political affiliation, or what you did when you were in eighth grade that the teacher didn't, did you get in trouble for we're not going to ask you any of those things. But we will ask some things that will allow for our NAIFA members to get to know you just a little bit better. Okay, sure. Okay, cool. So the first one, and again, we'll start off really easy. So Doug, what's your favorite sport?

Doug Massey 41:55 

I'd have say football.

Chris Gandy 41:56 

Okay, what's your favorite team?

Doug Massey 42:00 

Texas writers and the Kansas City Chiefs.

Chris Gandy 42:04 

Okay, see, so Suzanne, he's already passed. Because if he would said the Dallas, yeah, I wouldn't even know he's in Texas.

Suzanne Carawan 42:10 

I know I'm surprised.

Chris Gandy 42:15 

Doug, we like winning teams, winning teams, winning teams. They act like they can win. But that's a whole other story. That's not a sports show. But Okay, so with that being said, we know that Texas NAIFA is a is a large supporter, so we don't want to disturb the Texas Longhorns or the Dallas Cowboys down there. So Doug, what's your favorite food,

Doug Massey 42:42 

Mexican food. I like all of it.

Chris Gandy 42:45 

If I came to Texas, what is the one restaurant that I need to go to for a steak?

Doug Massey 42:51 

I would for a steak. I would probably take you just out the edge of town. It's called The Wakey Steakhouse. It's a little steak house that just absolutely, it's not frills, it's not fancy, it's more of a cafe setting, but absolutely the best salads in the steaks and the just the way the service, it's that's where I'd take you

Chris Gandy 43:14 

if you wanted to get your sake. Suzanne, you see where we got to go? Let's do we need to take a podcast on the road to the animal. We're actually going to do, Doug, at the at your anniversary, at that 100 years of NAIFA, we're going to do a podcast Suzanne. That's the Yeah, we should we do? We do the 100th year podcast of NAIFA. That'll be actually really fun. So, So Doug, last three questions for you, mentors in your life. Who's been the most monumental mentor in your career so far?

Doug Massey 43:50 

Oh, man, I would leave so many folks out. I guess it would be a gentleman that approached me some 30 years ago and said he was ready to retire long time. MDRT member, NAIFA member, his whole career approached me and just stopped by my office when I just showed up and said, I want to visit with you. Said I'm going to retire in the next 12 to 18 months, and I need to bring in someone. And probably he had the most influence on me. Really shifted my practice more to the retirement planning, and he brought me in and he was going to retire and 12 to 18 months, and it's a five year anniversary, he came back from lunch one day and said, okay, I got the ultimatum. My wife has told me not to retire and the load off of him, it would be on a great relationship. He taught me so many things about the qualified plan, smart. Plans market and got me into so many doors that it's really made my career a success. And so Gerald Stewart would probably be the one that had the most influence on me professionally.

Chris Gandy 44:54 

All right, Doug, let's fast forward to tape. Let's say you were able to go back in history and have dinner with anyone, whether they've passed on today or they're still with us. Who would it be? It could be a leader. It could be a family member. Could be whoever you want. Who would it be and why?

Doug Massey 45:18 

Man, wish I knew that question was coming. I'm blank. Give me a minute. I'll try to think of that one.

Chris Gandy 45:25 

Well, I have other ones. Don't worry, I got other ones, right? Your favorite quote, though,

Doug Massey 45:35 

Anything that mine can conceive and believe it can achieve.

Chris Gandy 45:38 

Absolutely, I believe that's Walt Disney. It is I think that's Walt Disney. Anything the mind can believe it can achieve. I believe that is Walt Disney. All right, Doug, last, question for you, I got a good one, your proudest moment in your career.

Doug Massey 46:01 

I think the proudest moment, well in my career, probably would be when I qualified for the million dollar round table. This was back in that time. It was a plaque around here somewhere. You had to qualify two years in a row before you could say you couldn't just have be a one year success. You had to do it two years in a row, meet the minimum, the MDRT and I made it the first year, and the next year I missed it. The next year I made it, and that's the year they changed it. So that was a goal, and very early in my career is to make the million dollar round table. Today my top of the table about a member MDRT more. Don't have any guess. I'm just too busy with NAIFA. But that was probably when I realized I'm going to make it. This is going to work. I can do this.

That and then, when I was elected NAIFA, Texas president. That was a big moment, as far as the association, and then when I was selected as Secretary a few years, couple of years ago, that was like a what have I done now, moment, but I've enjoyed every bit of it. Just somebody told me, very special, said they're not going to let you fail, and that's been it is every time I come into something I haven't done for like this podcast, I didn't get much warning, but they're not going to let you fail. There's anytime you ask for help or reach out, serve me in the NAIFA family, you get all the help you ask for.

Chris Gandy 47:39 

Awesome, Doug, well, with that being said, thank you for your leadership. Thank you for continuously and effortlessly volunteering to speak and to represent NAIFA and the importance of NAIFA, and not only the lives of people as advisors, but the lives of the people that we serve. And thank you for what you've done with the DOL. We you and I have been on some calls. One specifically, most people don't know that we start off the week super early in the morning, and we talked to each other, a couple of us, on our call, on our exec call, and today I said, you know, man, I said, we're proud of you. And we're proud of you because you represented all of us as a collective voice. And so we were super proud to have you as a family member at NAIFA. But remember, those out there, you can't be in the family on the outside looking out. So Doug, do you have any final words?

Doug Massey 48:49 

No idea. Chris and I, do we get to we're on a call every Monday morning, and I was thinking about this morning. Well, I'll be on the executive committee for two more years, and we got about a half of this year. So that's 125 odd phone conversations that I'll be on with Chris over the next two and a half years. And then Chris certainly following me. And I'm looking forward to that. But it's a call I look forward to every morning to just touch base, find out what everybody else is hearing, what they're saying, what they're doing for the week. And it kind of sets you in the right mind frame to get your week started and to do what you have to do for NAIFA and then carry on your own practice. We couldn't do this if we didn't have successful practices. And keep the main thing, the main thing.

Chris Gandy 49:41 

Suzanne, do you have anything else before I close this out?

Suzanne Carawan 49:44 

Well, just everybody remember, we've now, he's now has his nickname about Hefe, so that's going to be going forever inside the family. And then we're looking forward to seeing everybody at Apex. You want to register, it's apex.naifa.org and then if you want to refer someone as well, because we're talking about a lot of members, you can go to belong.naifa.org/refer and get yourself some credit for that too. So we're happy to see that, and we need more Texans. Come on, Texans, right? I'd love to see everybody join.

Doug Massey 50:12 

I think we've got the most membership so far from Texas, but we'd love for somebody else.

Suzanne Carawan 50:18 

Yeah, we'll take them. That's right. Welcome.

Chris Gandy 50:21 

The challenge has been issued out there for our nation, for leaders, Texas has challenged everyone to have more members than them and we can. We can set out at Apex and strategize on how to accomplish that. But we can't win without your voice. We got a chance to listen to Mr. Doug Massey today, and the work that he has put forth is tireless with the DOL, the work that NAIFA has put forth for you and all of you who are listening out there, there are people in our industry who benefit from the work that we voluntarily do.

So it's our important duty to tell them why they should be NAIFA members and why it's important that you can't do your job right without having NAIFA behind your name. So with that being said, thanks all of you for listening in today's podcast, Advisor Today, where we hear the voice of you the advisor and collectively make each other better for the greater good of our clients. We will see you at the next Advisor Today's podcast. Doug, thanks. I appreciate it.

Doug Massey 51:28 

Thank you all.

Suzanne Carawan 51:29 

Thank you. Bye.

Outro 51:33 

Thanks for joining us for NAIFA's Advisor Today podcast series. Make sure to subscribe to get future episodes, and if you're interested in coming on the show, let us know.